Curse

Allamorph · Apr 08, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

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Originally Posted by drkn

and not spammable for metric ass-tons of damage ;p

Fix'd

But yes. Precision =/= power.

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Originally Posted by drkn

you still CAN get an e-management skill, like the SR signet. which is powerful as well. you just, usually, don't have to worry about it.

To which I alluded a few times. I.e., unless you slot SoLS, you're SOL.

i r clevur lolz

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, you do have to do something; kill things. If you stand around like a lemon, you feel no benefit.

Mah fist.

Actually, I wonder how much of a riot would start if the time limit was increased to thirty seconds.

Cuilan · Apr 08, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

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Originally Posted by robmdq

I am completely agree with you, lets buff the underpowered parts, but i guess Anet is following the same path as all other game companies, it is eaier to nerf nerf nerf and let players in a game that lost it playability and original foncionality instead of actually making it better for everyone.

A part of balance would naturally include buffs, nerfs, and adjusting that can go either way. Anet has a history of nerfs, so this isn't exactly anything new. See the 1-2 only good dervish builds. They're attack spammers and no longer about enchantments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

For those QQing about with SR necros don't need to do anything: wrong, you are supposed to kill "smething" to get energy, if you get someone else to kill it for you, it is about the player and not the skill fault. So, from now on; please nerf the players who get others to do their job!!

Please consider that some professions work really well with their main attributes effect and their skills. Necromancers on the other hand can easily run builds without energy management or perhaps one skill slot for it. Mesmers require 2-3 skils that are primarily there on the bar for energy and have no other worthy effect. That gives the necromancer player far more options of skill choices. Mesmers have an attribute that in theory could make them extremely useful in PvE, but it works against them very often. Saying mesmers are suppose to sit there wanding and completely ignore how mesmers have been played for the last five years is a cruel way to get your lulz. Mesmers may not be a spam profession, but they should be allowed to cast or even allowed to spam depending on the bar. The reason why I say "allowed to spam depending on the bar" is because this is Guild Wars...in that a profession can do more than one single thing.

Necromancers are designed by Anet to have god like status with high energy return along with being very effective.

Tenebrae · Apr 08, 2010, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, you do have to do something; kill things. If you stand around like a lemon, you feel no benefit.

Not really , your group can do that for you and will ... you can actually go with an empty bar , X in SR and still get energy . Its too damn passive

Allamorph · Apr 08, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Saying mesmers are suppose to sit there wanding and completely ignore how mesmers have been played for the last five years is a cruel way to get your lulz. Mesmers may not be a spam profession, but they should be allowed to cast or even allowed to spam depending on the bar.

Whee signets. I guess Artificer's makes a tad more sense after all?

drkn · Apr 08, 2010, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Well, you do have to do something; kill things. If you stand around like a lemon, you feel no benefit.

you can stand around like a lemon and wait for your h/h or other players to use their stuff, so that you can spam yours again. you usually don't go out alone.

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Whee signets. I guess Artificer's makes a tad more sense after all?

what has more armor to do with being useful and/or having spammable skills?
please provide a decent pve me/x signet build. not a fun one, as there's a lot of those, but something comparable to most typical necro builds.

Cuilan · Apr 08, 2010, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

Whee signets. I guess Artificer's makes a tad more sense after all?

I'm sorry, I assumed that everyone who read my last post would know I was talking about PvE from its wording.

Regulus X · Apr 08, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

What's this about artificers, signets, and bad talk for necros? Ya'll want them to go this route for the sake of taking them out of the loop of viability?

My question to you "NERF SR" sayers is: How the f*** does it affect your gaming in any way, shape or form? That is the real question at hand. Are there too many necros everywhere farming everything, making the prices on items such as ectos low again? Are they devastating the GW1 economy by any means? Or are they being overused simply because it is the only surefire way to deal with HM without having to PUG. Also, keep in mind that unless you have an active PvE guild, there's hardly any other viable option in a dead game. PUGing to do HM is just not a worthy enough choice because players are generally bad, rude, selfish, etc...

I don't even PvE, but I'm against players motioning to get everything nerfed for the sake of raining on the parades of the successful and gloating on the forums about it, talkin' 'bout: "Yea, Qq sum moar. I get a kick out of it! LOLOLOLOL"

drkn · Apr 08, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

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How the f*** does it affect your gaming in any way, shape or form? That is the real question at hand.

bearing in mind the fact that my class has the least viable atts/skills in pve, while there are classes that can do nearly everything and they have superb primairy attribute, much better than any other primairy att, makes me feel sad.

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I don't even PvE

i don't get why non-pvers talk about pve problems (and vice versa, too). it's like i were whining about other people views about some hardcore HA.
sorry, /ignore-mode on.

edit:
@down - hence the and/or.

Allamorph · Apr 08, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

what has more armor to do with being useful and/or having spammable skills?

please provide a decent pve me/x signet build. not a fun one, as there's a lot of those, but something comparable to most typical necro builds.

A) Let's stop equating spammable skills with usefulness, for one. (I thought we went over this....)

B) Eh, no. I won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I'm sorry, I assumed that everyone who read my last post would know I was talking about PvE from its wording.

...wait. We're suppose to read posts?

When the frick did that memo get sent out?

trankle · Apr 08, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Not really , your group can do that for you and will ... you can actually go with an empty bar , X in SR and still get energy . Its too damn passive

Technically, no.

I go out with an empty skill bar, and 45 energy. The fight starts. Something dies. I still have 45 energy. Something else dies. I still have 45 energy.

The Necromancer's primary attribute is identical to every other profession's in energy gain terms, assuming the character is standing still and not using energy in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

bearing in mind the fact that my class has the least viable atts/skills in pve, while there are classes that can do nearly everything and they have superb primairy attribute, much better than any other primairy att, makes me feel sad.

I guess the obvious question would then be...why are you playing that class instead of a Necro? If the Necro is superior in nearly every way, and yet you for some reason still play a Mesmer, then there must be something of value in that class that makes it worth it for you, no?

Cuilan · Apr 08, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

If the Necro is superior in nearly every way, and yet you for some reason still play a Mesmer, then there must be something of value in that class that makes it worth it for you, no?

I don't know his answer but mine would be my invested time put into it, casting faster so I can get an effect faster with or without cons, the sometimes risky skills, conditions spread, their stances even though I rarely have room to fit them on my bar, interruption use to be fun (not great, but able to do something compared to nothing) in PvE back before hard mode/Great Dwarf Weapon, awesome looking armor/animations, and punishment. The mesmer profession has been left out of date with the game's changes. Someone said on Guild Wars in the skill update preview notes that mesmers shouldn't be buffed because nobody uses them, but I replied wasn't that the same situation ritualists were in? Now they have many builds and can use their own skills from their own attribute while being useful.

I'm left with an extremely extreme niche cleaner/SoH build, AP abuse that many professions can do in some form, and conditions which isn't always needed (area or if there's a paragon already in the party, etc.) Fevered Dreams builds have absolutely terribad energy and I'm surprised someone put it on PvX without a necromancer version.

Off topic, but someone asked.

Necromancers get to have their cake, eat it, and have your friends cake to eat too. Allowing a god like profession to remain while you have 3-4 others suffer from not being able to do contribute as well, run builds that nuke themselves, etc isn't right.

drkn · Apr 08, 2010, 08:45 PM // 20:45

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I guess the obvious question would then be...why are you playing that class instead of a Necro? If the Necro is superior in nearly every way, and yet you for some reason still play a Mesmer, then there must be something of value in that class that makes it worth it for you, no?

sentiment. and i'm too lazy to do it - i've completed most of proph titles (well, started hm, but was 3/4 way through skill hunter, etc) before i even bought factions. before i actually got into the game and knew what's everything about, my mesmer had some titles and money wasted on armors - i just didn't want to toss it all away on the way to gwamm, especially that some time and effort were already put in.
i've started playing a mesmer because females had the best looking armors in game and the manuscripts at the wiki made me all OMGWHATACOOLCLASS.
the game IS easy enough to complete it or grind all the titles up by playing h/h or getting into a generally build-free guild group. it is. still, it doesn't make balance unnecessary or unneeded.

and, staying at the mesmer and primairy att topic, i have played other professions. casters and para (which is, well, more caster-like with ranged attack and spell-like shouts), as i generally don't like fighters in games, but i got a fair comparison of playstyle, now, when i know the game and know what to look at, how to form a team, how to build my own skilltab. so it's not like i only played mesmer but friends told me xyz or i looked at the wiki and now i'm sure that everyone is better.
i'm now back in gw after a two-month hiatus and i'm starting to play para and necro again, since mesmer's hom is pretty much all filled up. and yeah, it is much easier/faster at most places, with either of them. para's superior armor - as well as party-wide imbagon magic - makes everything safer, while having much more energy on necro makes everything generally faster and much much more fun - it's great not being limited to wanding after a few spells, unless you run discordway.

on the other hand, i like the feeling of having a gwammed mesmer, when compared to other classes, it feels kinda hardcore :3

Sir Baddock · Apr 08, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Soul Reaping has already been nerfed, while it's useful in certain situations generally there are builds that are better or even to a Necro/Anything. As an example N/Rt's used to be Meta healers, then it was E/Rt (still is in some builds) and don't forget the good old Monk. If anything ArenaNet should be concentrating on updating useless skills and broken attributes some quick areas of concern include Tactics not being useful in MOST scenarios and an example of an underpowered skill is Word of Censure.

Soul Reaping for the amount of points invested into it is repetitively balanced considering most if not all spell casting classes have an easy source of Energy, Mesmers can remove enchantments for HP and Energy, Ritualists can steal it from Spirits, Monks have numerous secondary skills to reduce mana used as well as Elites and Regular skills which reduce the cost of spells.

TLDR version: Rather then having ArenaNet nerf things they should be improving upon the core elements that are already present in Guild Wars to make Soul Reaping not as powerful when compared to other professions main attributes.

drkn · Apr 08, 2010, 09:46 PM // 21:46

the biggest problem with SR and other classes e-management skills is that SR is NOT a skill, it doesn't take a slot in skilltab and is less probably to be disrupted/countered.

Reformed · Apr 08, 2010, 11:06 PM // 23:06

If it was a skill there would be endless howls of protest over how overpowered it would be compared to other energy management skills. That's why you can't and shouldn't compare primary attribute effects to skills, they are not meant to have parity. You really shouldn't even compare primary to primary because as is often the case they are balanced with that professions skills specifically in mind.

Improvavel · Apr 08, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

the biggest problem with SR and other classes e-management skills is that SR is NOT a skill, it doesn't take a slot in skilltab and is less probably to be disrupted/countered.

The problem is - Divine favor is crap, ES is meh, SP is barely useful and Fast casting is useless for PvE.

Compared to that SR is overpowered.

But lets look at how the game is played.

Rits - spam spirits, backup healing. Necros aren't better and don't replace rits.

Mesmers - Mesmers uses are very limited. You have some gimmicks and that's it. Necros aren't replacing Mesmers.

Monks - Necromancers can cast more expensive spells like Heal party, Divert Hexes. Still, monks are being replaced by ER healers not Necros. Before Necros could be used as support for monks, but monks still had their place.

Eles - Eles are ERing, which gives infinite energy. Their damage is kinda meh in HM most of the time, but before they weren't being replaced by necros, maybe because the PuG teams generally aggro dump their spells and the enemy is all dead.

So what are you guys worried about?

That players use necro heroes instead of other professions heroes?

Or you just want to bring SR to the same crappy status of other caster primaries?

Additionally, look at the skills necros have available - outside the ones used on the necro roles (MM, Orders, Curses) you only have a handful of skills that are of some use with other secondary professions.

Sure you can be a spirit spammer, but what do you get from the necro line? Rt/x can use paragon shouts for example or bring utility.

N/Rt healer? Rt/x healers can have hex removal, buff melees, N/Rt can't. Additionally the only useful elites a N/Rt healer have is either some crappy stuff like discord/IV or some crappy ritualist elite.

Eles are a bit the same.

Monks still have AP/boon for spammer roles, for example.

The fact is necromancers are a fine class. Sure Necromancer heroes are quite above any other hero class, but that is like saying Warriors need to be buffed cause AI melee sucks.

Necromancer humans generally play their traditional roles.

JDRyder · Apr 08, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Imo the problem isn't necros, its the balance of the game, mainly in HM. Hard mode totally destroys balance between classes, it needs a rework that doesn't make other ATTs next to useless.

drkn · Apr 09, 2010, 11:47 AM // 11:47

@Reformed:
'don't compare SR to anything, because you shouldn't do it, not in it's mechanics or in it's gains'
sorry, couldn't resist to point out your logic.
SR seems to be balanced out with playing a MM in mind. and that's all it's balanced in.

@Improvavel:
first of all, i said nothing about necros replacing anyone. i don't support this view of nonamedreaper.

Quote:

Or you just want to bring SR to the same crappy status of other caster primaries?

i'd prefer other caster primairies to get buffed to SR level. if that is impossible, i'd like SR toned down to the level of other primairy atts. i would love some balance in that matter.

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N/Rt healer? Rt/x healers can have hex removal, buff melees, N/Rt can't.

n/rt, as a support, not a main healer, is pretty much as good as rt/n.

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Necromancer humans generally play their traditional roles.

and the point is that this traditional role is easier to play out, less limited by the game mechanics, gives out more possibilities, makes necros more verstaile than other casters - is overpowered - call it what you like.
it might be a wide problem, though. necromancers are hard to balance and still be playable - i remember c4 back in lineage2, the time when necromancers dominated the scene. even later, after buffs to other classes and nerfs to them, they still have had their power.
still, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be tried to be balanced.

Will Mason · Apr 09, 2010, 03:20 PM // 15:20

For SR giving unlimited energy, people sure do bring a lot of energy management skills like GolE and SoLS...

It's a passive effect, but requires an active playstyle (i.e. actually killing things), the energy is rewarded on the end, and not the beginning as with other energy primary atts. Due to the 15 second limit, the energy sometimes helps but it's irregular and often doesn't allow you spam (which is the problem with abusing expertise).

The only place it is ever abused in pve is on heroes, because they spam their energy out...And that's a hero problem, not a SR one. Groups most always take a necro to use necro builds like SS and MM. They have a nice offensive/defensive niche with curses spells and death magic that other professions usually don't touch.

If anything needs a nerf, it's Expertise combined with a ranger's armor that allows abuse of secondary professions...

robmdq · Apr 09, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Mason

For SR giving unlimited energy, people sure do bring a lot of energy management skills like GolE and SoLS...

It's a passive effect, but requires an active playstyle (i.e. actually killing things), the energy is rewarded on the end, and not the beginning as with other energy primary atts. Due to the 15 second limit, the energy sometimes helps but it's irregular and often doesn't allow you spam (which is the problem with abusing expertise).

The only place it is ever abused in pve is on heroes, because they spam their energy out...And that's a hero problem, not a SR one. Groups most always take a necro to use necro builds like SS and MM. They have a nice offensive/defensive niche with curses spells and death magic that other professions usually don't touch.

If anything needs a nerf, it's Expertise combined with a ranger's armor that allows abuse of secondary professions...

Abused on heroes ----> Easy fix: remove primary attribute from heroes, i don't see why AI characters should have the primary attribute, that way humans can be better than heroes.

Expertise ----> my main is ranger, and i think you are right, at a certain extent. Fix: remove Expertise hability to affect non-ranger skills, but if you touch expertise so it affect ranger skills it will then probably be the worse nerf ever done to an already over-nerfed class.

/SARCASM_OFF